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Post by Suwako Moriya on Mar 23, 2015 13:10:00 GMT
Just some suggestions of skills that could be reworked... - Fighter: Increase the damage dealt with fighter weapons by 15% and increase the reach by 2, but keep the 'miss range' the same, interact with other skills. - Uses 15 points.
- Interaction with Counter-Attack: Decrease counter-attack cooldown by 3 seconds.
- Interaction with Critical Hit: Stun the enemy for 1 second.
- Interaction with 'Dual Wield Mastery?': The second attack chains faster.
I thought it would be good to remove the RNG part of it, and also make it 15 points, so the player can pick another thing to go with fighter, as for right now if you take fighter, then your only option without negative skills is loud mouth. If it was 15 it would open possibilities for things like: Fighter + Investigative, Fighter + Cook, Fighter + Defense and Fighter + Critical Hit. A lot more options for 'customization', and since it would still be kinda usefull with frail because of the range increase, it opens even more options, and even a option for Blunt Mastery if used with blind... just seems like a better number for it in my opinion. The 0.1 second stun...Also the range increase without increasing the 'attack missed' range would make sense for this, as a fighter would have more mastery on... well... not missing the punchs, and also using the full range of it. - Swordsman: Decrease the stamina cost by 5%, increase damage by 10% and interact with other skills while equiping a sword class weapon.. - uses 15 points.
- Interaction with Defense: Change the damage reduction from 85% to 90% and say the attack was parried.
- Interaction with Critical Hit: Increase the damage by 12% instead of 10%.
- Interaction with Devasting Blow: Increase the damage by 18% instead of 15%.
- Interaction with Bokken: Doesn't decrease the stamina cost but instead increase the damage by an extra 5%.
Well, those are some changes, right now I don't know if many people actually use this mastery anyway... I feel like this would be pretty intressing like this and more fitting of a swordsman, also would make it pretty unique... The 15 points are... again, for the combinations. And for new skills... - Dual Wield Mastery (Not Stackable): Increase the damage dealt by
the weapon on the left hand weapons that are being dual wielded by 3%. - Uses 5 points.
As only weapons that are not too strong damage-wise can be dual wielded, and the damage on the secondary weapon both weapons are lower. - So Cute! (Not Stackable): The enemy can't be merciless agains't that. Decrease the damage taken by 5% while holding a teddy bear or a bunny. - Uses 5 points.
Self explanatory... give a use for the plushies, and since it can only be dual wielded with a few weapons and does no damage at all = it's not that strong, even for 5 points. Maybe make it stop using it as a weapon when you dual wield it with a Knife too, for stamina reasons... - Accuracy(Stackable): Decreases the 'area range' of missing by 1. - Uses 3 points.
For when you have 3 points... also pretty good for new players I suppose. Explaining: (New plan here...) Supposing your actual range is 3 then you would have: 123456789Where Hit, Miss, Not-even-Attack.
With one point you would have: 123456789The purpose is to not waste weapon delay and stamina basically, having more effect on weapons that already have a lower range. - Highlander(Not stackable): Endure a killing blow with 1% health if the user was above 10% health before taking the damage. - Uses 15 points.
Nurse(Not stackable): Aways make full use of the medicines First Aid Kits (No RNG for using super regens and first aid kits). - Uses 21 points.
21 Points for making a combination with 29 points skills like Jogger or Pack Rat while stacking frails, or to be used in combination with -1 point negative skills. For negative skills: - Bad Reaction to Simochi(Not stackable): Reduces the healing received from any source by half, also vomits if injected by a super regenerative or a sedative. -6 points.
- In a diet(Not stackable): Can't drink soda. -2 points.
- Too lazy for running(Not stackable): Running speed becomes the speed of jogging (from the jogger skill). -3 points.
Update: Mar/26 - Changed the suggestions for Fighter, Swordsman, Dual Wield and Accuracy.
Apr/03 - Hide reworking suggestions.
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Tanasinn
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Post by Tanasinn on Mar 23, 2015 20:38:31 GMT
I figure some feedback won't hurt. The community isn't gagged in this forum yet, after all.
Fighter suggestions: I've personally tried to push for the fighter skill giving you a small range increase before. I'd say a range of five(Which would put fists on par with knives in term of range) would probably be good enough. The rest of the suggestion, though? Incredibly, incredibly overpowered. I don't think you realize how big an impact holding someone still is. I also don't think skills should really interact with others too much, and most of it seems like needless fluff. Expensive things should have diminishing returns, not increasing. See: League of Legends vs. Dota balance. Your comment about missing makes no sense, either. Increasing the range of punches would linearly increase the range of missing. Missing isn't some form of RNG mechanic. To give an example, let's say fists have 15 range. Attacking from 1-15 range is a punch, 16-30 is a miss. It's that simple. If you try to attack from too far away, you miss.
Swordsman suggestions: Overpowered. There's only a couple sword weapons a person will have access to, namely Bokken and Billhook, but billhook is a strong weapon, and one with basically the most reach outside rare spawns and spears. Giving it even more reach is obscene, and making it any faster is even more unbalancing. Then you want to add on extra perks? It's too much. Also, investigative already does that.
Dual Wield Mastery - The way dual-wielding works means both weapons already do the same damage. Dual-wielding knives in above normal lethality, for instance, makes each individual stab do 5%. Increasing dual-wield damage is already iffy, in my opinion. The only dual wield setup that would benefit in any way is dual knives, which are already very strong. No matter how much % you throw at dual bokkens, for example, it will always be garbage.
Plush defense - I'unno. It might encourage rushing of the two stuffed animal spawns, not that would it be helpful in any situation. Seems alright if way too niche.
Accuracy - The way you've described it would have no actual effect. I don't get it.
Highlander - Would work better as something you take as an attacker, making it so you always reduce them to 1% if the blow would be fatal and they have more than 2 or 3%. Mainly because if they're that determined to kill you, dropping to 1% is death anyway.
Nurse - This is the single most overpowered suggestion I have ever seen. Ever. It would be the only skill anyone with a brain would ever take. Going from 10% - 80% and 25% - 50% to the max values every time so drastically increases potential health pool that it's ridiculous. Imagine someone in a fight who has a syringe, as well - Now they have, effectively, 250%-260% health.
Yugioh reference - Should be worth way, way more than -1. You limit yourself to first aid kits, and take 15% from any injection. That's not great.
Diet - Soda needs to be removed from the game anyway. If I were less busy, I'd make a lengthy topic going on about why.
No running - Could possibly be worth more negative, since it's actually a rather terrible thing. Then again, Kam nerfed cripple down to -6, so who knows.
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Post by Suwako Moriya on Mar 23, 2015 22:23:43 GMT
Hm, about the range thing, I realised you 'miss' when you attack out of range, and that's the point: Decrease the range from where you can miss, therefore if before you would miss from 16~30 with accuracy you would miss in a 16~29 range.
I can't have an idea of how the 0.1 stun would work, just anything to decrease the RNG on it I guess... but maybe considering how fast it's possible to punch this 0.1 seconds could be a real pain in the ass, unless limited to heappen only each 1 second or something like that.
About swordsman, well... in a way, yes, in the other way, not so much. The decrease of delay would be something small, barely noticeable, if we count how much damage a Billhook does with Above Normal lethality you would still need to do one extra hit to kill a target. Most of the interactions don't have that much of a impact, the 10% to 15% on crit would basically just do what the actual skill already do, but plus the extra perks. The bonus with defese just seems logical, Devasting Blow... you would need to take negative skills to even get that, and is not that great imo. Counter-attack would only do that while using a bokken, and the foe could simply re-equip the thing, just would make the attacker waste a few seconds basically. The stamina drain being set to 2 would be to make it the same with Alodite and better with Bokken/Billhook, and about the range of the billhook... I mean, at this point it's clear that the range on the billhook is too absurd for a billhook, it would make sense if it's range was nerfed actually.
About dual-wield, I would say just... change the thing from 12% more damage on the left hand to 12% more damage overall then.
The plushie defense, hehe... I just aways wanted to have an actual use for the plushies, besides the idea of a killer with a knife and a teddy bear also seems like something.
Highlander thing: Basically just so if someone comes to deal the final strike, you still have a chance to strike back, or use a regenerative meanwhile.
About the nurse skill, I thought about that, it would actually be pretty OP but it just shows how much RNG there is on that, this is supposing everyone is packing a bunch of medicines anyway... boosting it up to 31 points would force the user to make use of frails, maybe making it work only with first aid kits instead of first aid kits AND regeneratives could be a thing too.
All the negative skills: Basically... I wasn't sure how much they would be worth, when I first wrotte it they were worth more, but seeing the actual negative skills, like crippled giving out only 6 points, I thought it would be something around that, as all of those except the running are not exactly necessary to be used all the time, and requires you to gather some itens in order to use them.
But yeah, I see your point, so I'll most likely edit the main post with some changes later. Thank you for the feedback.
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Tanasinn
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Post by Tanasinn on Mar 23, 2015 22:47:45 GMT
For swordsman, the reduction of energy cost is already enough to push billhooks into being efficient enough to kill without resting, if you take in the natural energy regen. For the record, razor edge is enough to do this too. The range on the billhook is actually only 1 pixel longer than the range on bats, and shorter than, say, axe range. An amusing thing about the idea of bokkens disarming people - That would actually help the person you disarmed if they're any good due to the lack of efficiency on bokkens.
I still don't understand any point for the miss thing. You'll still accomplish nothing if you try to click from far enough away, after all. Being nearly in range is still gonna make you miss.
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Post by Komaeda on Mar 24, 2015 0:37:27 GMT
My knowledge regarding skills and their practical effectiveness is very limited, so there's not much I'd have to say regarding most of them. I personally like the idea of RNG having some influence. Some chance of things going (much) worse or (much) better than you expected makes games more fun in my opinion. Something new!
Anyways, regarding the attack-missing range, don't you mean "increase the minimal range" instead of "decreasing the maximum range"? As previously stated, your current suggestion means that instead of missing, you'll simply not attack at all, which has the benefit of not triggering attack cooldown nor wasting stamina on a pointless attack, but I don't think that's what you were aiming for.
I'm not sure exactly on how the missing range works, but for the sake of exemplifying I'll assume it's double the hitting range. For example, a random weapon has 3 attack range. I understand that means you'll miss if you try attacking anyone within 4~6 range. Therefore...
123456789
Where Hit, Miss, Not-even-Attack.
Your suggestion would change it to
123456789
In other words, you'll no longer miss on 6 simply because you won't even attack in the first place, if you click there.
But if it were as I thought you meant, then it'd be
123456789
Where now you can also hit someone if they're on 4.
Maybe I misunderstood your initial intention, but I was under the impression that you meant the latter example.
Yes I have a tendency to assume things and yes we should forbid Misuterii High from buying more soda/vending machines
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Spottedpath
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Post by Spottedpath on Mar 24, 2015 0:39:37 GMT
I've actually noticed that if you're in the miss range, you'll always miss. Like. Always. If you increase someone's range and keep the miss range the same, you'll still miss, even with that increased range, and the extra range will be pointless.
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Tanasinn
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Post by Tanasinn on Mar 24, 2015 2:13:01 GMT
Always missing is indeed the point. If you're in miss range, you miss. That simple.
Frog's example is a perfect description of the miss system, and exactly how it works. It's up to twice the actual range of the weapon.
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Post by Suwako Moriya on Mar 24, 2015 3:27:37 GMT
Edited with a few changes, and yeah. The point of the accuracy mastery wasn't for decreasing any RNG factor, it was actually for reducing the area where you CAN miss, Komaeda got it right, I actually added it on the post since everyone seems so confused about it.
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Post by Kamuna on Mar 24, 2015 16:29:21 GMT
I was basically going to say everything Tana said, but I held back, since I didn't want to put my opinion in the suggestion. But, seeing as Tana already did that...
Negative skills usually give less, and positive skills usually take more, and have rather small benefits, percentage-wise (Like 112% damage, etc.). It is like this mainly to cater to older players who may not be used to skills. Also, negative combat skills generally give more than negative social skills, and positive combat skills usually take more than positive social skills, though this can be offset by general usefulness. Balance-wise, yes, soda needs to be changed, but personally, I love soda because it makes me overpowered. I'll tell you what I'd make these, if they were ever to get in:
Fighter Upgrades: Around 40-50 points. Why? Because the stun is too powerful. Decreasing the attack delay on dual wield will only make this worse, because the actual weapon stun will overpower the opponent. Basically, this skill would make it so the opponent wouldn't even be able to attack, deadly in the hands of a skilled player, especially if they are crippled (they'd have more counterattacks, and be easier to hit, so that'd make it easier to land the counterattacks). The range increase would also be pretty dang powerful.
Swordsman Upgrades: Around 50-70 points. Why? Because everything. Let's start. Stamina decrease - This will make it much less dangerous to fight with, say, a billhook. Range increase - Do you WANT the alondite to be more powerful? Also, billhook. Defense - Defense takes 5 points for a reason. That reason being that it reduces damage, it doesn't negate it. This would defeat the purpose of taking counterattack, and would become a better counterattack. Critical Hit - 5% more isn't THAT bad, but it still can make a big difference. Devastating Blow - This is where the majority of those 50-70 points come from. 30% more damage with a billhook or alondite HURTS. This might also offset frails considerably. But yes, 30% more damage would wreck people. On the better side, it could make the bokken more viable. Counterattack - Would make more sense if the weapon was dropped, but either way, this could really turn the tide of a battle. If the opponent is not prepared, someone could get one or two extra hits in.
Dual Wield Mastery: Around 18 points. This would be as powerful as the current Swordsman, maybe even more. Simply because knives are fast weapons, so increasing the damage output on dual wielding them could be devastating.
So Cute!: Wat. Anyway, anything that decreases damage by that much must be inflated. I'd say around 16-17 points or so.
Accuracy: Pointless (Git gud). 5 points, because positive combat skills have a minimum of 5 points.
Highlander: Endurance. Anyhow, should take at least 20 points, because anything that makes you survive for longer/have a better chance of running away should take up a lot of points. Everyone hates runners.
Nurse: It's OVER NINE THOUSAND!!!!! points. But seriously, no, this will give someone about 3-6 times more health. These things are already annoying. Please do not make them more annoying. On a more serious note, probably 50-100 points.
Bad Reaction to Simochi: I like how you give the positive skills less points but are really harsh for the negative skills. Anyway, this should be about (-6)-(-12) points. Could cause a lot of harm.
On a diet: Soda is very viable, but it does have its downsides, so (-1)-(-6) points.
Too lazy to run: Basically like a watered down Crippled. (-3) points.
Hope that gives you a bit of insight on how I reach my conclusions on skillpoints. I also change the skillpoints based on complaints as well.
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Post by Suwako Moriya on Mar 24, 2015 21:51:31 GMT
Fighter: Well, based on feedback I changed a few things, though not sure how this Fighter would be worth 50 points even then, if it was to make use of the attack delay of the interaction with Dual-Wield(the other suggested skill btw, not the actual act of dual wielding) to stun, then it would cost 25 points (would need a negative skill) and would still be a stun four times shorter than the actual stun, but with a higher chance. I decreased the suggested range for it too. Considering how the suggestions are right now, with 20 points (Fighter+Crit) you would get a effect similar to the actual fighter skill, but with a 2 range increase and a stun four times shorter, but that have 10% of chance of triggering instead of 5%, and also the option of getting other interactions.
Swordsman: Removed the range increase and the less attack delay thing, made the stamina cost based on % again and added a damage increase of 5%, also added a interaction with using a bokken or a scissor, since those are clearly not as viable as a Billhook or a Alodite(Scissor not even being mentioned...), and decreased the power of pretty much every other interaction.
Dual-Wield Mastery: Changed the increase to 4%, I tought of it more of a way of using the extra points, and not as a way to replace Razor Edge/Fighter for dual-wielders.
So Cute!: Decreased the amount of extra defense.
Accuracy: Decreased the amount of 'accuracy' it would give instead of increasing the cost, as it is more of a gap filler than an actual primary skill, a gap filler for things like the Masteries(12) and any other 5 points skill that would left the user with 3 points left.
Highlander: Increased the cost, but with that cost not sure if this is really decent... it doesn't really help you escape, unless the foe is out of stamina since you will be crippled even if it toggles... even more, since it does not aways work, if you are below 10% when receiving the killing blow this skill would do NOTHING at all, making it a very situational skill, since it's also pointless agains't things that have low damage, or simply will aways leave you crippled before killing you. For instance... it would work in a "Perfect case scenario" versus a person with Razor Edge using a nailed bat on above normal lethality (Same for Metal Bat with Blunt) , but wouldn't work (aka would do nothing at all, you just wasted 15 points) agains't billhook, knife, knuckles, hammer or pretty much anything that would leave you crippled before dealing the final blow.
Nurse: Scratched.
Every Negative Skill: Points changed.
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Veemon
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Post by Veemon on Mar 26, 2015 0:28:24 GMT
There are some nice thoughts behind the ideas here, but.. The fighter skill is still overpowered, mainly because of the interaction with the other skills. And swordsman, too. The unequip is iffy, but a bokken with swordsman and critical hit? 10% less stamina and a chance of doing even more non-lethal damage? That's a scary thought. And devastating blow, too.
Eh on Accuracy... so much to say there. Never mind.
You're 100% correct on the Highlander skill. It would change almost nothing. Even if it DID end up in a "perfect scenario", the way the skill works would make the target extremely easy to pick off with the next blow anyway. (Remember, people at a low percentage become extremely slow). It'd only help the person if they had a bunch of stamina or a soda or a super regen, or a medkit (unlikely), in that exact situation, really.
I like the cute skill. It should be added.
You're going to helpdesk these right?
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Post by Kamuna on Mar 26, 2015 8:06:48 GMT
About Fighter: The thing is, you're giving the fighter more guarantee. When things get too skill-based (like, literal skill, not skills ingame), people complain because they have no chance against people who are better than them at PvP. About Dual Wield Mastery: Still too good for comfort., unless everyone had it. Even an 8% damage increase is scary, given the right person using it. About Highlander: What if it is a close battle, then wham, the one who has 1% wins because they counterattacked. Also, the whole point is to use a super regen and run, anyway. Also don't worry about sending in a ticket to the helpdesk, I already did it for you as soon as I saw it here. Scissor blade isn't even a sword weapon, by the way, so no interaction with that.
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Post by Suwako Moriya on Mar 26, 2015 17:45:14 GMT
Changed a few things again. Fighter: For counter-attack, removed the stun so it doesn't get too skill based I suppose. Also changed for the Dual wield, since decreasing the delay of a weapon that already have a very low delay does seems kinda strange, but thinking about it making the second hit go out faster would be a nice deal instead, of course, only for fighter weapons. Swordsman: Just... changed it again, decreasing the gain of the interactions and the decrease on stamina cost, to focus more on the damage side of the thing, so someone with swordsman won't need to use one extra attack to get equal damage to a Razor Edge user. Dual Wield Mastery: Decreased from 4% to 3% gain. Accuracy: Changed where it should act just so... it makes more sense. The way it was before it was most likely going to be pointless, now it should do like that: Supposing your actual range is 3 then you would have: 123456789Where Hit, Miss, Not-even-Attack.
With one point you would have: 123456789Kamuna on Highlander: That's actually the point of the skill, but also end up being very situational. Veemon: Yeah, accuracy was somewhat pointless the way it was now that I think about it. I was adding the stuff for bokken because people apparently see bokken as a bad weapon (?) but now I changed it again. Oh, and the cute skill, haha, I also really wanted something to interact with the plushies, I like to take them but sometimes it's just not worth that extra weight and... Can't keep they equiped all the time, mainly because it will be used to attack if I dual wield it.
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